Movie That Made Me Queer with Bren Frederick

In which Rowan dives deep with the founder of the Bi Pan Library, Bren Frederick, to talk about owls, trio-protagonists and bi awakenings in the this week's episode.   We're a serious podcast and have a sponsor, SquareSpace support us! Help make the podcast profitable by going to squarespace.com/queermovie, and by using the code 'queermovie' at checkout. Find Us Online - Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod  - Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast - Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/  - Multitude: @MultitudeShows   Production - Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John - Editor: Julia Schifini - Executive Producer: Multitude - Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd   About The Show Queer Movie Podcast is a queer movie watch party hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we research and rate our way through the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to black & white classics, Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things gaaaaay on the silver screen. New episodes every other Thursday.   ROWAN:  Before we kick off the episode, we just want to say a huge thank you to our patrons Toby and Jennifer, who have chosen to support us on the highest tier available on our Patreon, Rainbow parents. So, thank you so much for your support and for the support of all our other patrons. Sincerely, you help us keep the show going. So thank you very much and we have a link to the Patreon in the description if you would like to check it out. [theme] ROWAN:  Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast celebrating the best and worst and LGBTQ plus cinema one glorious genre at a time. I'm Rowan Ellis and welcome to one of our guest's specials. Today we are joined by a very special guest who will be answering the question what movies made you queer? I am very excited to welcome, Bren Frederick.  BREN:  Hello. ROWAN:  Yay. who, amongst basically professional bisexuals, um in same way that I'm a professional homosexual. The founder of the Bi Pan library, which you've never heard of, I beg you to google it. It is an incredible resource for kind of Bi Pan and M-spec books. Chef's kiss, wonderful staff, we love to see it. And so you know, also my friends. So I was like, please come on the podcast, love to chat to my friends in a professional capacity. BREN:  I'm very happy to be here. ROWAN:  So as we normally do at the very start of these episodes, when we talk about the what movies made you queer format, we like to also specify you know, queer is—queer is not necessarily how everyone identifies. So what words do you use to de— to describe your identity? What is the official title of this episode? Bren Frederick, movies that made me blank. BREN:  Movies that made me bisexual, genderqueer. Those are the main words that I use. I also just use queer as sort of a blanket term for myself. All of that would be accurate.  ROWAN:  Amazing. We have had a fair few people who have done these guests' former episodes. And they—some of them have doubled up with the—the kind of things that they wanted to talk about. There's a lot of people where it's like, oh, these— these particular movies or these particular characters really sparked something in —in many bisexual people, I only know, many queer people. You did send me some previews of some of the stuff you're going to talk about, and I am potentially—potentially going to bet, put money on the fact that no one else is going to have your choices because you have chosen some truly wild, wild picks. And so I would love to hear about your first one. In whatever order you decide, most hinge to least hinge. Um, earliest to most recent. What have you fancy, go for it? BREN:  Okay, well, my fri—for my first movie, I've chosen Hoot from 2006. It's based on the novel Hoot by Carl Hiaasen. And it's rated a whopping 26% fresh on Rotten Tomatoes.  ROWAN:  Oh my God. BREN:  I don't—I think I'm in the wro—on the wrong podcast for anyone to know what movie I'm talking about. ROWAN:  on the wrong planet? BREN:  Have you seen this film, Rowan? ROWAN:  No, I had no idea it existed and you sent me—I'm glad that you didn't send me just that information that you sent me the poster because I feel like I got more of a sense of what was going on. In that, it also has some quite famous people in it. This isn't some like— BREN:  Before they were. ROWAN:  Like random indie movie that like no—we've never heard of. Like these are— these are some big names. BREN:  Yeah, like surely Brie Larson has been mentioned on this podcast before, surely. ROWAN:  If not an injustice has been done. BREN:  Yeah.  ROWAN:  But yeah, Brie—Brie Larson in it.  BREN:  Yep. This is I believe her first like main role in a film, I could be wrong. And she has a pop single over the credits. ROWAN:  Okay, the fact I didn't know that it's truly— BREN:  Yeah. ROWAN:  Truly a—an injustice. Absolutely. So okay, what is the plot of this movie? Like, what—if—if people are sitting down thinking wow, 26% on Rotten Tomatoes, that seems like a gem. Brie Larson singing a pop song. I'd watch it. What is—what is actually going on in this movie? BREN:  Right. So it isn't a musical. We'll start there. It was just this thing that happened in the Arts where like, leading girls and women would sing a song and it would go over the credits. And we just all accepted that was how it was. I don't know if everyone was trying to start a pop career at that point. So the main character is our boy Roy Eberhardt, played by Logan Lerman, who you might know is— ROWAN:  A not a star-studded cast. BREN:  Percy Jackson himself, which I never saw, because um, yeah. ROWAN:  You heard the rumors about how bad it was. And you were like, I will—I will simply no, be watching this. BREN:  No, it was uh. Well, I grew up very conservative Christian. So it was like, pagan nonsense. ROWAN:  Oh, yeah. No, that's of course. Yeah. e—equally valid as an excuse, I guess.  BREN:  Essentially, it's about a—there's three kids who, Roy, Beatrice, the bear, and Beatrice's stepbrother, who's only known as Mullet Fingers. Mullet as in— ROWAN:  Wha—what?  BREN:  Mullet isn't a, the little fish. ROWAN:  Yeah, okay, that makes more sense in the little—like little tiny wigs on all his fingers. BREN:  That's a completely different movie. So they become friends. Roy is new in town, he's not fitting in. He's from Montana. And He's new in Florida. It's set in the Florida Everglades. ROWAN:  Sure, yeah. That seems like a place that exists. BREN:  And I—I could really make an argument for this film being anti-capitalist, anti-cop.  ROWAN:  Pro mullet. BREN:  Because, because the center—the center of this plot is these kids are trying to stop a big franchise Pancake House from being built on this little lot that has a bunch of burrowing owls and endangered burrowing owls. Carl Hiaasen, who wrote the book is an environmentalist and really involved in a lot of efforts to save the Florida wetlands. And all of anything that comes from this man is trying to save the birds. ROWAN:  This is—I mean that sounds like a delightful movie. BREN:  Yeah. But—but how did it's make me queer? ROWAN:  the question. Yeah. the wet like, I get that like gay people like birds or whatever, but like, Where's—where's the connection for you here? BREN:  None of these three kids fit into the gender role they're supposed to fit into. And that's not at all central to like, that's not what the—the movie is trying to tell you. But it's the thing that I picked up on as a kid. Roy is very sensitive and gentle and kind and emotional about these little birds. Beatrice is a star athlete at the school, she's a soccer player. She's very tough, all the boys are afraid of her. She can outrun anybody, like, she's—she, and she's known as the bear. She has this very like, masculine, tough nickname. And then Mullet Fingers is a runaway from his family. His family does not understand him, doesn't treat him well. And he would rather go live, like he literally lives like in a swamp, kind of, and feels far more connected to nature and animals than with humanity. And that sort of— is that distance from what you're supposed to be. And also, it's an entirely platonic film. Also, like, there's moments where you might think like, maybe Roy and Beatrice have a crush on each other, maybe near the end. But it's not central at all. And they have this very equal, platonic, caring friendship. At one point, Beatrice like stays the night in Roy's bedroom. They're like, middle schoolers, and they just have a nice, like, emotional conversation. There's no implication of anything romantic there. And it's—it's very, very sweet. And, well that was so important to me as a kid, where I was just kind of drawn to people of any kind as friends, as crushes. And it was so much media at the time, like the 90s. And the arts, was very aggressively gendered, very aggressively, heterosexual.  ROWAN:  Yeah.  BREN:  And prescriptive. And this movie didn't do that to me. And I thought I felt so safe there. I watched it so frequently on my little portable DVD player that we would have had at the time. ROWAN:  Okay, so you've seen something truly incredible. Just that and without description. Bren, because you've made me want to watch this movie. BREN:  Watch it with me. ROWAN:  That is 26% on Rotten Tomatoes, we absolutely need to have a, like a Netflix zoom party situation with this because it sounds adorable. And I definitely understand what you mean about the the idea of having these sorts of possibilities put before you, especially ones that didn't fit into this very prescriptive idea that showed you a world where you didn't have to fit into this particular, like mode, this particular type. And I think that that's always so exciting to see that it doesn't necessarily have to be that you are like, oh, yes, this one character is who I am. But just the idea of like, you can have a character who's rejected their family, or you can have a character who is breaking the norms. It doesn't have to be the norms that you want to break, but it still has that element of, you know, something that feels relatable, especially I think, to young queer people that makes complete sense to me. BREN:  Yeah, something I was noticing, as I was looking back over the movies I thought I might talk about today was, I was very drawn to movies with at least three main characters rather than a central protagonist, a hero or heroine. Because if there are three people of any gender, one of them is going to end up sidestepping out of some sort of prescriptive gender rule. Because they need it to be three different dynamic characters. So if there's a man and a woman and then a sidekick of any gender, that sidekick is going to be breaking some sort of gender norm. And I was always the most attached to that third person. And those—those were always the most comfortable to me because I could sort of patchwork together the things that I related to from all of these uh different archetypes I guess. ROWAN:  Yeah, I mean, thinking about just the idea of the like, I'd know the Lizzie McGuire like three relationship kind of teen show element of like you had the—the main girl who was like pretty much the like normal girl kind of thing. The boy who was like, you know, some flavor of boy that probably might end up being a love interest of some kind. And then the lesbian best friend um, truly does the one on the side, which we love to see. So you know Buffy because similar energy with the willow, the lesbian best friend on the side. I love that. I mean, did you have any inkling at the time of like what this meant to you? Or is this one of those things where you look back on it and you're like, oh, boy, this has really given me some a—some info about myself as a child. BREN:  Certainly not the gender part of it. That—that I have, I am still entangling as an adult. But at the time, I was extremely preoccupied with Brie Larson in the film. I had a crush on all of those main characters, like Logan Lerman, and Brie Larson, and whoever the other guy was, he doesn't—I don't think he acts anymore. ROWAN:  Mullet Fingers. He should just be known as Mullet Fingers from now on. Great kid. I don't know. What a guy. BREN:  But I—I was very preoccupied with Beatrice, who she was—she was so tough and cool. She was also feminine. I was very attracted to her, and I couldn't, you know, it was that classic situation of not knowing if you want to be her, or, if you like her. So I would like try to do my hair like her and didn't like it, and didn't know what the deal was with that. So but at the time, like I hadn't—it had not hit my consciousness yet. What it meant that I was so drawn to her or that I was so drawn to like my close female friends with whom I had very intense relationships and didn't understand why they were so intense either. So no, it wasn't conscious at all. I didn't have my first realization that I might like girls, much less all of the rest of it until I was 15, or 16. And that was maybe a week. I had maybe a week where I was thinking a lot about that. And then I repressed it so hard. It didn't come back up again until I was 18 or 19. ROWAN:  I mean, here's the thing. That sucks real hard. But also, as you know, this podcast and me, myself is all about distance from real emotions, and therefore incredible work. Well, honestly, that was— BREN:  I deserve an award. ROWAN:  You really decided to repress it. I knew you committed diligence, you know, years-long repression. Incredible work. Do you have any of these examples that you feel like we're part of that? Either that initial realization or the subsequent realizations later on? Has it been anything that you've really felt like, oh, this is a part of that realization of that feels like it factors into it? Or is it always been sort of before and after the fact? BREN:  I've only had a few that had to do with media. And one of them was a book, which I don't know if you want to talk—me to talk about it. ROWAN:  I—I'll allow it. Considering that you're a librarian, and I guess I'll allow you to talk about this film podcast, this audio-visual podcast. BREN:  Yeah. The—the first book that I read with bisexual main characters, book called Far From You by Tess Sharpe. It's a young adult, mystery thriller, like murder mystery thriller, about a girl whose secret girlfriend is dead. So, you know. ROWAN:  The classic. BREN:  We did bury her. And then later in the book, she starts developing a relationship with a boy. And both of those relationships are treated as equally real, equally emotionally deep. The author is queer herself. And I remember when I read it, I didn't know that about this book before I picked it up. So when I got to this part of the book, where I realized what was happening, and the girls are kissing on the page, I was sitting in a church. And I had this like, this sense of like, collapse around me. There's a stained glass window, you know, to the side of me with a cross on it. And I'm reading this book it's like, just this like, lightning bolt through me of connecting dots suddenly. Um, like every girl in a movie that I've been like really fixated on. And every girl I knew in real life, who was—I was just—I didn't know why I was so drawn to her. And it was very, very intense. And that, that would have been when I was 18-Ish. And that one I couldn't—I couldn't repress after that. It was just—it was too intense, too much at once. I was just old enough, I think to have this sense of like separated identity. I had a job outside the house like I emerged from, from needing to be so self-protective. And it was, it was very scary. I don't know that it was a good experience exactly at the time. ROWAN:  I thin—I mean, I think that it's like with movies. I kind of can understand a sense of understanding of your sexuality through crushes or movie characters or even understanding gender through a kind of gender envy element of the presentation of characters. But I do—but I do understand this element of books to go into the like interiority of someone in a way that movies can't necessarily get to, or sometimes we'll have to use the language of books through like voiceovers, something like that to get to. And so I can absolutely see like, not just the concept of two girls being able to kiss, but just like what was going on inside the mind of a character, while that was happening. That would give it validity that would connect with internal emotions that were happening inside as well. ROWAN:  That's a really good point. I haven't—I hadn't thought about that before. And it is written in first person, I believe. So even—even more of that character's thoughts. Just sort of turn into your thoughts as you're reading and yeah, Hmm. Interesting. Very interesting. ROWAN:  I mean, rebrand the queer book podcast. Coming to you soon the spin-off series. That is really interesting. And also like such a no offense, but you do—that does sound like a scene from YA movie that you just—you just said, you were like yeah, I was in church, and I read and it suddenly connected everything. And I'm like, I can see it now. I can see that montage. You know, BREN:  It's very cinematic. ROWAN:  Watching back to your head. BREN:  Yeah. Yeah. Today, we're gonna talk about the movie of my life. ROWAN:  Hmm. Oh my gosh, love to like really excited for your new movie and your—your new biography, new bio. Bio pickle, biopic. I fully don't— BREN:  I've always said biopic, but— ROWAN:  So have I. And then everyone says—saying biopic, and I was like, oh, no, am I about to embarrass myself in front of film bros? But I saw—I just, you know what, maybe I'll never say the word again. Maybe I'll just pick the pronunciation of the person who says it first within the exact context that I'm in, and it'll be fine. I would love to hear about your next movie pick. BREN:  Alright. Speaking of girls that I had strangely intense friendships with. Princess Diaries. ROWAN: Were you—were you friends with Anne Hathaway? Is that what we're trying to—is that what's happening? BREN:  Oh man. No. I wish. I did have a huge crush on Anne Hathaway. But specifically, I have picked this film, because of Lily Moskovitz played by Heather Matarazzo. Real-life lesbian. ROWAN:  Confirmed. BREN:  Confirmed lesbian. There is such a great friendship between Lily and Mia in the film, and in the books, which are also very good. And neither of these characters is queer in the movie. I don't think—I don't think there are any even implied queer characters in Princess Diaries that I can remember. ROWAN:  There is uh—I can—I can tell you the Princess Diaries story law keepers here. I think—I believe that there is one mentioned character, which is in the montage scene where they going through— BREN:  In number two. ROWAN:  Number two.  BREN:  Yes.  ROWAN:  And they're going through and saying like, oh, what are some eligible bachelors for me to marry? And there's one of them where it's like, he's very happy—she's just like, oh, he's very handsome. And the bodyguard says, yeah, his boyfriend thinks so too. And it's like, oh, good for him.  BREN:  Yeah.  ROWAN:  Okay, moving on. BREN:  Right on. Yes, you're right. You're right. But I think—I think that's it.  But Lily is so proudly different, stubbornly different, like different, so on purpose, And has a very close and long friendship with Mia. And through the movie, we see Mia start to change and she starts moving more towards a more feminine presentation, more traditionally attractive presentation, and also towards relationships with boys, which neither of them had really had to worry about before what happens in the film. ROWAN:  No—I mean, not mean, I feel like we can give—I'm gonna spoil the premise of Princess Diaries in case anyone is—for some reason, like, has managed to in life and not understand the premise of Princess Diaries. There's a girl, she finds out that her dad was the prince, and now that he is dead. She, in fact, is meant to be the next ruler of this obscure and fictional European country. And she is plucked out of her life as a high schooler in America and has to be taught by her grandmother, and various teachers how to be a princess, which includes straightening her curly hair, taking off her glasses, like all of these classics, like the transformation tropes really go really hard in this movie. BREN:  They really do. ROWAN:  And that and so like, yeah, what's happening in the movie is that she is being transformed into a literal Princess, like the most feminine, ideal style, kind of caricature that you could think of for better or for worse. BREN:  Yeah, yeah. And some of it, she's fine with and some of it, she feels as ridiculous. And that's—that's an interesting discussion in itself, I think in that film. That she does have to pretend in some ways. And some ways, she embraces the change and sort of figuring out which of these things that I'm conforming to, to identify with and which don't tie. But back to Lilly. Lilly is absolutely furious through a lot of the movie. Because of all these changes, she's very intimidated. And I think feels very defensive of their relationship and how it might change because how Mia looks and acts and her priorities are changing. She's very disdainful of the boy that Mia has such a big crush on for a lot of the movie. And I just remember relating to that so much as a kid who—when my friends had crushes on somebody else, or, you know, the special friends that I had a special connection to that putting us, could definitely couldn't be put into a simple and short word that we have for that situation. I mean, whoever that friend had a crush on was my mortal enemy. Like, the—there was no greater betrayal. Why did she need him? I—I didn't need somebody else. I was happy. I had this friendship. And like I didn't— I could list off a couple boy's names to like get, get people off my tracks  I guess. But that was a feeling. And that movie that—that I always projected onto it was, that Lilly was feeling what I was feeling when I was young.  ROWAN:  And this is really interesting, right? Because this is a character who's not portrayed in the movie like this is correct. Right? So in the movie— BREN:  Exactly. ROWAN:  She says, she says things—like she has a talk show that's called Shut up and Listen. Like it's—it's very much—she's portrayed as like this annoying. bullheaded self-righteous feminist. Like, if she likes she's going too far, like me as the one in the middle who has their head screwed on right? Who's finding the you know, the middle ground and Lilly's the one who's just being too extreme, which I think is really interesting that like, even though the sort of implications of this movie, in terms of like, that element of Lilly's personality is not something that you're necessarily encouraged to appreciate. That you still found an appreciation for it, even without being kind of like spoon-fed to you as like, oh, this is a character— characters you're meant to support, that you still found a connection to it? BREN:  Oh, yeah, I certainly wasn't like Lilly was meant to be such an extreme character. That is like, has a good heart, but it goes too far. Whereas Mia is also an activist and also like, remains, you know, she still has feminism at her heart, but she's doing it in this much more controlled, tamed feminine way. I actually think—you know what I ac—I actually think that like, as much as I love this movie, still, I think that it also did kind of hush me up a little bit. Like it, both—It both made me queer and made me quiet for a little bit longer. Because it showed so much of a more respectable way to be different, be a girl, and be an activist. Is that like, you find the respectable way to do it? You aren't too loud. So like not to criticize the movie. I came here to praise but. ROWAN:  I mean, I think—here's the thing, though, like, because you can have movies that were influential to you. That you are like, these are still not perfect. Or like even— even that they were influential to you, because you were like, oh, absolutely not, like this has made me angry. And this is like been a part of my journey in that way. Like, I feel like all of those kinds of things are very valid. BREN:  Oh, sure. I don't think any of the movies that I'm bringing today are—are perfect.  ROWAN:  Not even Hoot? BREN:  Not even hoot. It's a little too sensitive—sensitive to one of the main characters who was a cop. ROWAN:  Okay, I see. I see. And then at that time, when you—when you were watching, I'm imagining that this was not something that you were like, consciously being like, I guess a crush or like, oh, yes, a character who is like me, because I'm different. Because of these reasons. It was—it was kind of free that realization I'm assuming. BREN:  Yeah. Well, because all the characters who I relate to now, I look back on these films, I'm like, I related to that person, like maybe on a gender way. At the time, I thought I was relating to the other character who was more respectable, more feminine, and straighter. That's who I thought I was relating to, which was—was not the case. So it's—it's this backward patchwork thing. Like I was saying about who where I thought that from a gender perspective, I was relating to the character I was attracted to.  ROWAN:  Hmm. Yeah.  BREN:  And also, maybe I thought that I was attracted to male characters when really it was that I related to them in a gender way.  ROWAN:  Oh, what a mood.  BREN:  Yeah.  ROWAN:  So I—I feel like I have that energy of like, relating, like thinking that I fancied the—actually yeah, thinking about it. The—the two examples I gave earlier, Gordo from Lizzie McGuire or Xander from.  The idea of like, oh, yeah, I'm attracted to these men. No, I wasn't and it was because it was like, okay, these are like awkward nerds who are like, not lucky in romance. It's not lucky in life, just sort of chilling out, not necessarily feeling like anything special. And I was like oh okay, maybe now I can acknowledge the fact that this was not because I had a crush on these boys, it's because I was like oh no I'm too much like this. Too much this energy. Not even not necessarily the gender way, which is a ner—eh— personality way. And also like them having these—let's say Xander because he was a bit weird about his having crushes on people and I really didn't kind of have that sort of energy. But Gordo has very like quiet, a very quiet crush on Lizzy through much of the series. Justice for Gordo, truly a campaign like, they were meant to be doing a remake of that show. And if—if she had not been married to Gordo, I genuinely think that there are people—people that would have been Ryan's. So I guess it's glad—it's good that it got canceled because I don't know if they needed to take that risk. Those two end games, the original OTP.  Love— love this two. Anyway, not this episode is not about me and my for heterosexual characters from my childhood to get together, it's about you and your movies that made you queer. So do you have a third one to—to bring to the table? BREN:  Well, speaking of whether or not you're attracted to men, and whether this fictional male character is actually attractive. This has been one of the hardest things to untangle for me, much harder actually, then being attracted to women. And I keep talking about this in this very like binary gendered way. But I think that's—that's kind of just what happens to you and how you end up being forced to talk about bisexuality. I wanted to talk about the Hunger Games series and love triangles. ROWAN:  That came out of absolutely nowhere and I love to. I— we love a good love triangle discussion on here.  BREN:  I didn't—I didn't warn you about this? ROWAN:  No, you didn't. We've not had uh people necessarily talk about love triangles in these types of guest episodes. But we have had some hot takes about love triangles, which is always fun.  BREN:  Yeah. ROWAN:  So I love—I love to talk about good love triangle. What was going on with the Hunger Games for you? BREN:  So I think this is gonna turn into a hot take situation.  ROWAN:  Love it.    BREN:  So I was not a shipper when it came—when it came to The Hunger Games. Like I don't have a strong feeling either direction. Gale, Peeta, whatever. Huge crush on Jennifer Lawrence in the film, though.  ROWAN:  Yeah, correct.  BREN:  Of course. She's a woman and she looks like a cat, like in the face. And that's my type. But Katniss is pulled between two men, which feels I think for the majority of viewers, like a very heterosexual situation. But I had so many feelings about it when I first saw it in theaters, which was when I believe I was in like my first relationship with a man at the time. Especially when the later films started coming out. She is like kind of caught between two men, but it's more—it's more of a love quadrangle, and there's a man, there's a man, there's Katniss, and there's trauma. And the trauma is much more important relationship there in the films.  It's about—a lot of it is about trauma, much more than any of it is about romance. But the relationship with Peeta throughout the series could be real, could not be real, we don't know. Because it's so— it is sensationalized. It is a performance, even if there's something real underneath it. And through the years, uh I'm—I am married to a man. And there's a lot of pressure to behave one way or another, about that relationship and in that relationship from all sides. And the performance of that relationship. And that relationship with my own gender in tandem with my partner's gender. And what that means other people think about us. What it makes other people think about our sex life. What it makes other people think about the roles in our relationship, it kind of—at a certain point, it starts feeling like it doesn't matter what that really is, it matters more what other people outside, whether that's like, in the fiction of The Hunger Games, where it's an audience, it's the government, it's the rebellious faction. Or in real life, people watching the film and projecting what they want to be real in—in the fiction. I feel caught in that and I got so emotional, and through that whole series, as a young adult, I think when that was coming out. And still, like, if I watch it again, I still feel that way. Because it feels that the—the perception of what the relationship is, is more important than the reality of what it is and the people inside of it. And how like that pressure and that assumption kind of dissolves what's real—or it can dissolve what's real. It starts feeling like it doesn't matter that much inside. I'm getting very deep about this like, like deeply emotional. ROWAN:  No, but that's—that's fair. And like also the like that is a motif that is like quite literally baked into the plot of those later films because of Peeta's memory loss.  BREN:  Yes. ROWAN:  like what and the uh—and them having to him having to rely on her, and her having to rely on him to—to remember what's real, like they have that game like real or not real. So that actually is like a whole other level of like, reality and like relationship on to it. BREN: The real or not real makes me cry. ROWAN:  I—I like oh my god. Now I'm like, maybe I just want to—maybe I wanted to just do a movie day where I just marathon every one of these movies that we kept mentioning. Because every one of them I'm like, either I've already seen it. And I'm like, yes, amazing, or I haven't and I'm like, it sounds so good. BREN:  Yeah. ROWAN:  But like I also—uh I feel like The Hunger Games even though again, you're right that there is this element of like, wow, so heterosexual. So like, this is the not at all and maybe you would think that the queer people would be into. The first Hunger Games book was one of the books that I did for my dissertation. Tragically, too early, I would say because my dissertation at university was on YA dystopia before the Hunger Games blew up. So I was doing about the book, and the movie had like only I think the first movie had just come out. But it wasn't like a big thing at all. So there was like no writing on it. And now I'm sure that I could do a much better job with—with a topic that people have actually written about. It wasn't just like my 18-year-old self being like, I want to write about dystopias for teenagers.  BREN:  So ahead of the curve.  ROWAN:  I know right? But I do think when you read the books, there is a really strong sense in the books of what I would consider to be an obvious like a romantic element to Katniss's character. BREN:  Yeah. ROWAN:  Because like when she's making the decision about who she's going to be with, it is almost entirely divorced from romance. Like it is entirely a practical, like, platonic decision. So she's essentially like the—the decision for her a lot of the time comes down to why would I be with Gale when he can hunt and that's what he brings to a relationship when I can hunt. But Peeta can bake, like what—like that's like the practicalities that she's thinking about it, as it's not as a romantic relationship as such. She's like, I like both of these guys. Like I'm frie—I was friends with Gale for a long time. And I've come to really care about Peeta as a friend. But who am I spending my life with, that's a practical decision?  BREN:  Yeah. ROWAN:  And so I—I see so many ways in which those movies and outside characters like Johanna for example, can be—have these elements of gender and sexuality linked to them su—in such interesting ways. So yeah, that's it. I—I—I agree with you definitely that there is something in those movies even if you don't necessarily—even when you were first watching them that you didn't necessarily clock it. That a lot of queer people I think probably had some feelings about. BREN:  Yeah. There's a lot to sort of hunt and gather in—in between the lines. I think. It also like— ROWAN:  What I feel around. BREN:  Want to talk about like gender? Katniss outside of the games has one outfit. It's like a plain shirt, a jacket, a sweater, and some pants. And mostly she has a weapon.  ROWAN:  Hmm. BREN:  And she has one hairstyle. ROWAN:  Yeah, she's doing a lot of like compensating for her dead father's like— BREN:  Yeah. ROWAN:  The role of the hunter. BREN:  Oh right. ROWAN:  The role of the patriarch of the family like taking responsibility, protecting your— like your family, like all of these sort of elements of things that are praised in men. Katniss is like taken on herself as part of her. BREN:  Katniss is the strong silent man of the house. ROWAN: Truly. Like actually, you're completely right. Yeah. BREN:  Dang.  ROWAN:  Yeah.  BREN:  And then she is in drag for to—to be in the competition. ROWAN:  Yes, there's—there's these scenes again in the book where she's getting her like nails done for the first time and getting her hair done. And unlike the—the Mia Thermopolis of Princess Diaries, very different transformation scene into the Princess of the District 12 kind of angle. There's no like, we take this and this and give you a princess. It's her being like gross, why all are these people touching me?  BREN:  Yeah. ROWAN:  She's like oh, only emotion during those scenes. She's not like wow, it looks so beautiful. It's like not—not a vibe for her. BREN:  She's really not interested. Yeah, I loved the movie. I never finished the book series. And I was to be a book person, but. ROWAN:  How could you? I've—I genuinely really do feel like the—I need to reread the books again. But I think that they definitely weren't—the movies were definitely picking up on the exploration of stuff that was happening in the books. It was very much focused on her trauma. You're absolutely right. Like the—the books, the movies both they were like, hey, this girl is not okay. Which I also have a lot of respect for, because I think there are lot of movies that are these big blockbusters now like superhero movies, things like that. Don't necessarily take the time to be like hmm, but what would happen if you had gone through all of this nonsense. Like how would you be feeling, uh probably real messed up? You as psychologically not be okay. And so I think it's always—there's always like a real sense of excitement when those things are dealt with in a—in a way that feels truthful, which I think is why you've got the movies that do get so well received. In terms of those plotlines are the ones that actually deal with it in an interesting way. So like, if you're going to talk about Ironman 3 and Tony's like PTSD. If you're going to talk about the new Black Panther movie, and the examination of grief in that if you want to talk about even like Civil War, and Steve and Buckys like very traumatic relationship. I think there's—that's like a reason why those things are generally considered to be elevated slightly above the others, is because they're going to deal with trauma in a way that feels authentic, even in a blockbuster.  BREN:  Yeah. That's why I liked the ending of— I don't know. Actually, I don't know how the books end, but I'm going to spoil the ending of the films. ROWAN:  Do it! It's my podcast, and I decide we'll get spoiled. And I've decided you can spoil the end of The Hunger Games. BREN:  Well, Katniss and Peeta ended up together, and they have kids. And to me, it makes the most sense in the world, they're practically the only people in the world who are going to understand what the other went through. They understand each other's trauma very intimately. And they have relied on each other for so long, to gauge what is real or what is not real, to remember what happens to them. And to see the truth, to see each other. This sounds like an of course thing, but they understand the ins and outs of their relationship before and during the games. That—that alienation from who—who they are, what their feelings really are, or that happened during the games when they had an audience watching them and demanding a very like clean, and pretty, and perfect heterosexuality from them. They understand that pressure and we're the only two that were under that pressure like that. And they understand that. ROWAN:  Hot take. Hot take here. Katniss and Peeta are a tea-for-tea relationship. They— they understand each other's trauma, they understand the performance that they've had to go through together in the public eye. That's my hot take BREN:  link. ROWAN:  Give me that link. I—I'm sure someone has ridden that ship. That's—because that's exactly what you're saying, right? The idea of like, you have a shared trauma, you have a shared way of like, having to navigate public perceptions of you. And like, there are some things that only you—only people who have gone through similar stuff to you can understand. That like, this is really— this is really feeling like a yeah, queer people having that understanding of each other through trauma elements. So. BREN:  Yeah. ROWAN:  I mean. BREN:  I could see it. I could see. ROWAN:  I can see it.  BREN:  I could also see Bi for Bi. ROWAN:  Hmm. Yes. They were both—they just bond over how hot Gale is, They're like, not for—not for us in the long term. He did do some war crimes, but like he was all right. We can all admit it. Finnick as well, he was pretty good.  BREN:  Yeah.  ROWAN:  Just all of this, Johanna in the list. BREN:  Yeah, of course. ROWAN:  That was crazy type. BREN:  Of course. ROWAN:  Was everyone in the games? Haymitch once in a dream.  BREN:  Oh, Haymitch, 100%. Here's the thing. Haymitch is hot, I'm sorry. ROWAN:  Okay. Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely.  [theme] ROWAN:  At this point in the podcast, we would like to thank a few people who got us where we are today and keeping us on the airwaves. So thanks first to Squarespace for sponsoring the podcast. If you're looking to build a website for yourself or your business, then Squarespace is an all-in-one place to do just that. You can use it to build a site, set up an online shop, or connect with your audience. We actually use Squarespace to make the Queer Movie Podcast website. But I think even cooler is the fact that I use it to make my own website. Because I have some really cute pictures of me on that. I've never been relaxed a day in my life. So I have a lot of projects and social platforms and things that I'm on. But Squarespace lets you not only link it to your social media, but also connect it entirely so that you can display posts from your social profiles on your site, in real-time, plus a ton of analytics and insights that can help you grow your brand. If you need to figure out like where are people coming from when they visit your site? What do they search to get there, and what keywords are being used to find you? Where are the sales coming from? If you have a shop with them, you know, that kind of stuff. They also have some really exciting features like a donation function. So you can encourage donations on your site for a cause that you care about. I am very much not a techy person. So I also was very thankful for all of the templates and the easy designer tools that they have, including making sure that the website does not that like absolute trash on mobile. Because you know, nothing's worse than you making this beautiful website on your computer and then you look on mobile and like your incredible gallery is just like one massive picture at a time going down before any of your text, like just absolutely a mess. So easy to do with Squarespace, not a problem whatsoever. So check out squarespace.com/queermovie for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch use offer code Queer Movie to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. I would also love to thank our second sponsor, yes, that's why we have two sponsors today. Look at what's going up in the world. Brilliant. So we all know the stereotype that gay people can't do maths, right? Like that's—we've acknowledged that this is a stereotype. And yeah sure, there are some outliers who are, you know, naturally, they just haven't and maths coming out of their brains. But some of us need a little bit of help. So I thought that it might be interesting for us to introduce something that could help us on this journey. That is brilliant.org, which can help you to learn more about math, science, and computer science in bite size, interactive ways. They have quite literally 1000s of lessons with new ones added every month, including one that I was looking at, called the scientific thinking course, using science and engineering in the real world to solve puzzles and apply ideas practically. Whether that's figuring out how like different structures are built or finding your way out of a hall of mirrors. If you're curious about how things work, whether that is computers all the way up to the cosmos itself, then brilliant is a great place to start. topics range from Physics to Computer Science and everything beyond. It's also very visual, which I very much appreciate. Because just reading about science stuff, I feel like I don't really understand what's going on. Cannot make pictures in my brain. And it's also very interactive. So it's very much designed to help make lessons very understandable, even for beginners. You can dip in and out also because there's bite-sized lessons that you can finish in 15 minutes. So if you find yourself being like, oh, I could get a little cheeky hit of dopamine by scrolling through Tiktok for two hours, maybe spend 15 minutes of that two hours doing—doing a fun little lesson learning a little bit about our world in the universe. To get started for free. You can visit brilliant.org/queermoviepodcast. Click on the link in the description and the first 200 of you will get 20% of Brilliant annual premium subscription. And speaking of science, the last thing we want to give a little shout-out to in this section is an incredible podcast which is part of the Multitude collective that the Queer Movie Podcast is also in which is called Exolore. If you haven't heard about it before. Every other week, astrophysicist/folklorist Dr. Moiya McTier explores fictional worlds by building them with a panel of expert guests. Interviewing professional world builders or reviewing the merits of worlds that have already been created. Incredible. There's humor, there's learning through humor, you will gain an appreciation for how special our planet already is. You can subscribe today by searching Exolore in your podcast app or going to exolorepod.com.  [theme] ROWAN:  Okay, so that was that was absolutely delightful little palate cleanser of a movie, which people would know um and heard. It was a big book all I feel like yeah, Princess Diaries also, it was a good one. But I—potentially, I know you said you got two more. I feel like are these two gonna be more unhinged to early 2000s terrible movies. Or are we going with something more well-known?  BREN:  The next two I have are actually queer.  ROWAN:  Huh. What? That's not healthy series 101.  BREN:  Canonically. ROWAN:  People come here with a straight movie. What are you doing? Okay. BREN:  I gave you some very straight movies, Rowan.  I don't think ROWAN: I—I can't and I shall not. Okay, so give us the penultimate option. BREN:  Alright. I want to talk about Professor Marston and the Wonder Woman, which is a— ROWAN:  Oooh, talking of superheroes.  BREN:  Yeah. So a polyamorous romance about the creator of Wonder Woman. A queer icon . I—I mean, I'd never seen a movie like this before. ROWAN:  Hmm. Yeah, no, this is—this is a, a movie that you would expect. Like if you knew about the biography of the people involved, that you would expect that it would be like, straight washed, like sanitized. BREN:  Yes. ROWAN:  Like very much so, that it wouldn't really tell the true story. That it would try and make it like, I know weird inspirational elements to it, rather than So but like, how was your experience with it? Like, did you know about any of the background beforehand? Or did you go into this movie, not knowing what to expect? BREN:  I went into it. I knew what, like—I knew that it was going to be a poly romance. I didn't know the full story of like, how it went. And I went in expecting a devastating ending. Because at this point, this would have been maybe I was like 25 or 26 when I watched this. And I—I just expected like the pattern of how these things go, that— ROWAN:  He'd been burned before.  BREN:  Yeah. ROWAN:  He'd be burned again. BREN:  Yeah. Historical, biographical film, about two women and a man falling in love. All with each other, was going to end with devastation. And there is like there is sadness in the ending. But it's not completely sad. After so many films where I have had to patch work together some sort of fake representation in my head of what I am, something to relate to. Even in like lots of other love triangle films where in the end, you have to choose one. One of them will be, you know correct or one of them will be canonical.  Professor Marston and the Wonder Woman is just—there's a couple and they fall in love with another woman. And it kind of just works out for them all in the end. Like they go to their death altogether. In the end of the film, the man dies, and the women— ROWAN:  What? BREN:  Are together for the rest of their life.  ROWAN:  This is so cute. Oooh, this is truly just like—like you mentioning.  BREN:  This experience of not having to, like watch a choice be made and understand in your heart, that the choice is telling you what you're supposed to do.  ROWAN:  Yeah. BREN:  That's prescriptive. Like you can only have one. ROWAN:  Yeah, this is the right thing. Like this is what you should be doing. BREN:  This is the right thing, the wife. Professor Marston's wife should have had to choose. That's—that's—that's what would happen in any other movie.  ROWAN:  Yeah. BREN:  Is that she would have to choose between this woman and this man? And she doesn't. ROWAN:  I truly like so shocked by this when I—when it first was people talking about it in that it was coming out. And that it wasn't like it was a very classic, mid-budget kind of movie. Like it was—It wasn't some like underground. Like, oh, we've had to do it ourselves. Like in the dark of the night kind of situation. That was like so exciting.  BREN:  Yeah. I think that even if— even if you're monogamous and bisexual, I think it—it's a very beautiful experience. Because in so much BI media that is about specifically bisexual women coming to a realization that they're queer. That realization often comes at the cost of a relationship that they're already in with a man, which is fine, and a real thing that happens. And like I have not, I'm not saying that can't be a good story. But when it's like maybe the main story that you see, that's also positive about bisexuality, that can be like pretty painful. If you're already in a relationship that's fulfilling and good, that the only way there is to explore your sexuality is to blow up your life, that you already have. And maybe you're—or happy with more or less. But in this book, they discover something new. And their relationship is strengthened by it. ROWAN:  I—I love that.  BREN:  It's—it's very beautiful. It's very beautiful. And also watching it—it's also not just the beginning of that relationship. It's—it's not a romantic story, where it ends with a wedding. It ends with, they create a life together, and they age together. They raise children together, they have a queer middle age. ROWAN:  Yeah. BREN:  You know, and although in many cases like their life, and their relationship does make them unsafe, or it makes it difficult for them to be successful, or it—it puts them in danger. In other ways, they also find people who accept them and understand them. And they find a lot of fulfillment with each other, and their children love them. And it's—it's just like, the idea of a queer middle age, the idea of a bisexual middle age also because so much bisexual fiction of—of any format is about young bisexual people.  ROWAN:  Yeah. BREN:  That meant so much to me watching it in my mid 20s. Truly unable to imagine what the rest of my life looked like as a bi person. So I don't know, it's—it's lovely it's also— it's also kinky like that didn't really factor in, but I feel like people should know ROWAN:  But we're going to add that.  BREN:  People should know. ROWAN:  Um, I was little kinky. I—I yeah cause I'm thinking about the like shows or media that I've that I know of that have this like poly element to them. That are more magic so like the ending of Sense Eight songs a love triangle with just being like what if we all were in a relationship together? We love to see it. And again, it has that, that element of like we're strengthening a relationship. This is not something that's going to be bought that's going to turn to jealousy. This is not something that's like okay, we need you to break up with these guys. You can be with this guy, it very much was like okay, actually, we each individually within this relationship have a relationship to each other. That feels dynamic and interesting, and fulfilling and respectful. BREN:  Yeah. ROWAN:  And then also Iron Widow, which is, a YA book that came out this year, which ends in a polyamorous relationship between the main girl and the two guys. BREN:  Incredible. ROWAN:  10 out of 10. BREN:  It's so good. ROWAN:  Like the most— it's like, it is so funny because it's the classic like, best friend from childhood who she didn't consider to be an option until he was. And then brooding bad boy with a secret soft side and sight like all the classic marks of  YA love triangle and then they simply wam, what if they just all kiss? What it's got to do on what's happening? BREN:  It's good shit. ROWAN:  10 out of 10 and— BREN:  Incredible. ROWAN:  More of that, please. We'd love to see it. BREN:  Please. ROWAN:  And also I really like the fact that we have like, she's explicitly bisexual within it. But she's not made to be in a love triangle with a man and a woman to like, prove that, that's how her bisexuality works. It's like, no, no, she's also like figuring out that she likes women. But right now, there are two guys that she fancies.  BREN:  Yeah.  ROWAN:  And that, that can be their relationship that they have.  BREN:  Yeah, and the—and the book like ends that way.  ROWAN:  I was like doing a lot of like kiss, kiss. I know that you're like, you know, wearing giant mech suits and like fighting monsters and all this stuff. I'm like, kiss, kiss, kiss. You know, I really know what to appreciate. And these—these incredible science fiction epics that I am mentioning. And I'm like, what if everyone just had a nice time? And they got to kiss people that want to kiss. BREN:  There's also a real like, gender fucky element to, to Iron Widow.  ROWAN:  Oh, absolutely. Yeah. BREN:  We're talking about books again. We're doing it again, Rowan.  ROWAN:  So um, so so this is again the—this is the—what is it, like a backdoor pilot where they try and do like, spin-off. Like this is the backdoor pilot for queer book podcast. I think we've got time for one more option if you've got another movie that you want us to talk about. BREN:  Yeah, well, let's end with gender.  ROWAN:  Let's end with gender. BREN:  End with gender. The end of gender now. So this morning, I've rewatched this because I had only seen it once in my life, but it like made a real impact. And that's Victori/Victoria, starring Julie Andrews. ROWAN:  The Julie Andrews movie.  BREN:  Yes.  ROWAN:  I haven't seen it. But would you like to explain to the lovely people at home? What— what is it about? BREN:  Well, it's a little bit of a tangle, isn't it? Julie Andrews plays Victoria, who—she's a singer, and she's unable to get work. And she develops this friendship with a gay man, who through a series of unfortunate and—and—and complicated events, she ends up being forced to cross-dress, which we love that trope, don't we? And while she's cross-dressing, he has this idea that they try to get her work by passing her off as a man. Who can who ha—who just has a very high register to his voice so that she can do that basically a cross-dressing act. And they pursue this she's a woman pretending to be a man, pretending to be a woman throughout the whole thing. So there's—there's— ROWAN:  There's layers. BREN:  There's layers, and then there's also a man who's is very attracted to her when she's a man playing a woman. And he has a whole like fucked up thing about how— how he relates to her and himself and—and how he deals with his own sexuality. In this scenario, which that part of the movie, throw it in the trash. ROWAN:  Okay, love that.  BREN:  Throw it in the trash. It's—it's—it's—there's—there's some unfortunate things with this film. And there's also a lot of beauty. I think when you first see Julie Andrews, fully dressed up in her like pinstripe suit and—and dapper little hat. She is coming out of a wardrobe and she punches a man in the face. ROWAN:  Amazing. BREN:  Which— ROWAN:  That's gender. BREN:  That's gender. But as the movie is so much about how gender and perception of gender is very malleable. And how people li—like how much context is important to how people perceive you. And there's a lot of incredible lines by the—the gay mair—main character, Toddy. He's like this aging gay performer. I think he's a singer. He's—he's old. He's poor at this point. He's not super successful and teaming up with Victoria, like gets in that success again, but they also have a very real and—and close emotional relationship. There's so many great lines from him. And there's this one scene where they're walking down the street together. The first time she's walked down a street as a man.  And he's talking to her about how there's so many ways to be a man. She's convinced she can't pass as a man because she doesn't talk right or walk right or, you know, she doesn't have this without anatomy. And he gives her this pep talk. This basically says like, there are all kinds of ways to be a man. There's all kinds of men who act all kinds of ways. Men love and live in so many different ways. And people see what they expect to see. There's so much interesting to dissect. Now I watched this when I was probably 18. I—my first job was at a used bookstore. And we also got DVDs and at the used bookstore. And so I stole this from my job. ROWAN:  Wow. BREN:  Because I was living with my very homophobic parents. And I stole the DVD from work in order to watch it because I'd never seen anything like that. And it—it was the first time I'd ever heard any of these sentiments. There's like—there's a, there's a line where—where Victoria talks about how homosexuality is only a sin to pious men and terrified heterosexuals. And that, like open my brain in this new way of like, oh, it's fear. Oh, I'm afraid. It's not that I thought something was wrong. It wasn't that people around me necessarily even like had any justification for thinking that this was wrong. It was that they were afraid, and what were they afraid of?  ROWAN:  Yeah. BREN:  So these two repeating themes or elements through the movie, which is like one, Julie Andrews's character will sometimes release a cockroach from her purse to try to get free food and things like that in restaurants. But cockroaches come up at various points as this thing you can introduce to a scene and suddenly everyone is like a fight will break out, people will be yelling, screaming, the scene is disrupted. And there's also this repeated thing where Victoria will sing a very high note, and it will break all the glass in the room. It reflected to me how behaving differently, speaking differently introducing queerness into any of the spaces in my life at the time, because I didn't have a lot of queer friends, or possibly—possibly any at that point, would like ruin the scene. That if I release this—this thing into the room, it causes chaos. And that is what people are afraid of. That is what Heterosexuals are terrified of. And it started sort of opening up that like, well, maybe it's not reasonable at all for that—for people to be scared of this. Maybe this is not hurting anybody actually. Like I said, I only saw this film once. Before I rewatched it.  ROWAN:  But it had an effect, clearly. BREN:  It—it really did. Because—because it was—it was more than just vibes. It isn't explicitly queer film. And it doesn't like, well, there are certainly homophobic and transphobic elements to it, like 100% it also is largely quite positive towards the queer characters. Toddy, the gay man main character ends with—with a partner, and nothing happens to them. They're okay. They—they just live life together from there. It was so different from anything I'd seen before. There was no need to patchwork anything together.  ROWAN:  Yeah. End it. BREN:  Yeah. It planted a lot of seeds that have only really come to fruition now, like—like in my late 20s, like lots of those really started to grow and feel real. And feel like something that I could claim and stand really solidly in. So thanks, Julie Andrews. ROWAN:  Thanks, Julie. Oh, in two of these movies from you. BREN:  She is. ROWAN:  She is she's in Princess Diaries as well. Truly, Julie is the MVP of this episode.  BREN:  So much to thank Julie Andrews for. ROWAN:  Truly. Um, thank you so much and like speaking of thanking, thank you for being on this podcast, because that was amazing. I feel like we went to so many different places, had such a good discussion, you bought some excellent choices to the—to the show, including your  books, but you know, for your I'll allow it. BREN:  We're not literate around here. ROWAN:  And thank you so much for sharing all of that, because that's fascinating. And I know that a lot of people are going to see themselves in, you know, maybe not the exact example of Hoot. Although, you know, we never know. But in that sense of understanding the outsider, like having a connection to these characters, and not necessarily knowing why like all of these elements, which I think is something that comes up again and again in these episodes. And I love to see what weird and wonderful things people have her bought to it. So thank you very much for joining me.  BREN:  Of course, this was really fun. Everybody go watch Hoot from 2006. ROWAN:  And when I suddenly like a weird uptick in views and they're like, the producers are like in the background be like, how did this happen?  BREN:  We got to get the Rotten Tomatoes score up everybody. I expect to see at least a 27% after this episode. ROWAN:  Otherwise, what was the point? This whole thing has been a campaign, an introduction to a campaign to get it up to 27%. So where—where can people find you if they would like to find you/ your work online? Where should they go? BREN:  Alright. Well, for my personal work, uh my website is brenfrederick.com. But I would much rather you go check out the Bi Pan library at bipanlibrary.com, or at Bi Pan library on Instagram and Twitter. I'm most active on Instagram. Yeah, the Bi Pan Library is a resource for all, friendly to all Bi Pa, M-spec, people out there and their allies and friends and family. ROWAN:  Amazing.  [theme] ROWAN:  So that is it for another episode of the Queer Movie Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. If you've enjoyed this episode, then make sure to follow and subscribe to the podcast. So you're primed for our next episode in your podcast app of choice. And if you like what you hear, consider supporting us over on Patreon where we have some very fun perks on our thanks, including monthly queer movie watch along on our Discord. Extremely fun. You can also follow the podcast on Twitter and Instagram for some behind-the-scenes content as and when Jazza and I remember to do that. And we would like to as part of this thanks once again, Jennifer and Toby for supporting us at the highest tier on Patreon rainbow parent. We are so happy to have your support and we wanted to thank you once again. Make sure you follow and subscribe to the podcast so you're notified of our next episode. I've been Rowan Ellis, we are edited by Julia Schifini and a part of the Multitude collective. Find more of their amazing stuff at multitude.productions. Thank you so much and you will hear from us very soon.